Using fancy math, the total house advantage for an Iron Cross bet is 3.87% source. So let's do the math: $24 place bet ($12 ea, 6 and 8) x 1.52% = about $0.36 loss. $22 Iron Cross bet x 3.87% = about $0.85 loss. So essentially, you stand to lose more money over time with the Iron Cross system even when less is wagered. I apologize in advance for formatting, I'm composing this on my phone from my hotel room. I have been playing craps for about two years and have played both sides of the pass. I've tried everything from the Iron cross and heavy all the way across, to 'the can't lose bet' and martingale systems. My current strategy is now just the flat Don't. I apologize in advance for formatting, I'm composing this on my phone from my hotel room. I have been playing craps for about two years and have played both sides of the pass. I've tried everything from the Iron cross and heavy all the way across, to 'the can't lose bet' and martingale systems. My current strategy is now just the flat Don't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onjcFRcWAXs&list=PL5sNoUTU2sjwDc7NjCEHP4e-bEQTVRe0U
7 videos, total time 12:18
Craps players LOVE this strategy, called the Iron Cross. My version of it starts on the come-out roll with a $60 don't-pass line bet, hedged with a $2 yo-11. This is repeated for all come-out rolls. If the point is either 5, 6, or 8, we just wait for the roll to end. But if the point is a 4, 9, or 10, then we make $60 bets on the place-5, place-6, place-8 and the field.
Although the strategy starts out on the don't side, the actual goal is is to get on a very long, sustained run of numbers... not the point number and not the 7-out. When the point is a 4, 9, or 10, EVERY ROLL pays!!! The 2 pays $120, the 3 pays $60, the 4 pays $60, the 5 pays $24 (that is the $84 for the $60 place-5, minus the $60 lost for the field), the 6 pays $10 ($70 - $60), ditto for the 8, the 9 pays $60, the 10 pays $60, the yo-11 pays $60 and the 12 pays $180!
The risk of exposure is minimal because we hedge the come-out don't-pass line bet with a $2 yo. Next, when we get on a 5, 6, or 8 point, we have an advantage odds play. Finally, if we do get on a 4, 9, or 10 point and go ahead and invest an additional $240, we are immediately hedged by our don't pass line bet... if any of those number repeat, yea, we lose the $60 line bet but we win on the field, and that's why we only establish the Iron Cross when the point is 4, 9, or 10.
The video playlist shows how the strategy is programmed in my downloadable gaming system called e_gamers (as featured in the Matt Parker 3-dice challenge video) using a facility called TheBetmaker....
https://youtu.be/hBBftD7gq7Y?t=806
(watch for 3 1/2 minutes starting at 13:30)
In that video's 'show more' description, you can find a link to 'Marty Wollner Long Description'.
http://spikersystems.com/FlashNet_Pointer/www/downloads/SpikerSystems/P1_Demo_Demo/SpikerSystems_Patent.htm
In that colorful document is a link to download the e-gamers system on Windows-10. Here is a direct link to it...
Link removed, with permission, by management
I have a video playlist that discusses installing and testing it on your own Windows-10 system:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHh0ui5mi_E&list=PL5sNoUTU2sjxAufYlaPfCkuE5_O5N7vtd
(Start with video # 9 for the install instructions)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSWY6xOLV34&list=PL5sNoUTU2sjxAufYlaPfCkuE5_O5N7vtd&index=9
Contact me if you have problems and/or questions, or if you want me to help you program your own strategy tests using TheBetMaker. TheBetMaker lets you program strategies using the craps layout wagering buttons, along with a set of programmable conditions, for example 'If on the come-out roll' or 'If the point is 9'.
TheBetMaker is not as fast nor as complete as WinCraps, but it is easy to use and it works on all of our 22 unique games, including Roulette, Ricochet, and 3-Dice-Craps. The strategy programing instructions are stored on disk files; the programming language is named NailsULA after my cat Nails.
Marty, 03-Oct-2016
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Oct 4, 2016
The difference between zero and the smallest possible number? It doesn't matter; once you cross that edge, it might as well be the difference between zero and 1. The difference between infinity and reality? They are mutually exclusive.
imaterpsfan
I can't believe I've stumbled upon such a great and informative site. Going to be in Vegas next week and I've been practicing craps/blackjack for a few weeks now. In working on different strategies, money management etc for craps I've noticed my best results from the simulators have come from playing the DP/odds with the IC after CO. My money management has been $50 on DP at CO then full odds. $25 each on the 5,6, 8 & field. Each win I take winnings and leave original bet. In this scenario a 7/11 on CO I lose my DP bet and then lose everything without winning anything if point is made on 2nd roll. Utilizing multiple simulators this strategy has been successful to varying degrees, but the simulators are not live action and don't factor in the skill (or lack thereof) of a real shooter.
I wanted to get you're opinions on this strategy and if anyone has done something similar with tweaks. Are there simulation calculators out there that can be run to determine house advantage of this over the long run. I know the house advantage of DP with odds is .273% (MGM Grand) and IC alone is about 3%, but haven't been able to find the house advantage of this combination of long term.
Thanks,
Jim
I wanted to get you're opinions on this strategy and if anyone has done something similar with tweaks. Are there simulation calculators out there that can be run to determine house advantage of this over the long run. I know the house advantage of DP with odds is .273% (MGM Grand) and IC alone is about 3%, but haven't been able to find the house advantage of this combination of long term.
Thanks,
Jim
AxiomOfChoice
EV is linear. E(X+Y) = E(X) + E(Y). Just add the edges up.
Edit: Add the dollars, not the percentages.
Edit: Add the dollars, not the percentages.
sodawater
every bet on the craps table (aside from odds bets) is negative expectation. adding more negative bets together will always be worse than sticking to one of those bets individually. all this hedging you're doing comes at a cost of higher expected loss in the long run.
if you want to enjoy craps, stick to the lowest house edge bets.
determine how much you want to bet, and then bet the minimum on the line that lets you get that entire amount in play by taking or laying odds. that's all there is to it. in this way, your combined house edge for your desired bet amount will be minimized.
example: you want to put $40 in play every shooter.
bet $10 on the line and $30 odds. that way you're only paying house edge on $10, not the whole $40.
if you want to enjoy craps, stick to the lowest house edge bets.
determine how much you want to bet, and then bet the minimum on the line that lets you get that entire amount in play by taking or laying odds. that's all there is to it. in this way, your combined house edge for your desired bet amount will be minimized.
example: you want to put $40 in play every shooter.
bet $10 on the line and $30 odds. that way you're only paying house edge on $10, not the whole $40.
Beethoven9th
...and don't factor in the skill (or lack thereof) of a real shooter.
There is no 'skill' involved in playing craps.
Fighting BS one post at a time!
sodawater
There is no 'skill' involved in playing craps.
the only skill involved in playing craps is understanding payouts to make sure you don't get short-changed, which happens almost every session if you don't correct it.
Craps Iron Cross Don't Pass Test
CrapsGenious
I can't believe I've stumbled upon such a great and informative site. Going to be in Vegas next week and I've been practicing craps/blackjack for a few weeks now. In working on different strategies, money management etc for craps I've noticed my best results from the simulators have come from playing the DP/odds with the IC after CO. My money management has been $50 on DP at CO then full odds. $25 each on the 5,6, 8 & field. Each win I take winnings and leave original bet. In this scenario a 7/11 on CO I lose my DP bet and then lose everything without winning anything if point is made on 2nd roll. Utilizing multiple simulators this strategy has been successful to varying degrees, but the simulators are not live action and don't factor in the skill (or lack thereof) of a real shooter.
I wanted to get you're opinions on this strategy and if anyone has done something similar with tweaks. Are there simulation calculators out there that can be run to determine house advantage of this over the long run. I know the house advantage of DP with odds is .273% (MGM Grand) and IC alone is about 3%, but haven't been able to find the house advantage of this combination of long term.
Thanks,
Jim
I wanted to get you're opinions on this strategy and if anyone has done something similar with tweaks. Are there simulation calculators out there that can be run to determine house advantage of this over the long run. I know the house advantage of DP with odds is .273% (MGM Grand) and IC alone is about 3%, but haven't been able to find the house advantage of this combination of long term.
Thanks,
Jim
It is your choice if you want to bet that way, but do keep in mind that for every shooter you put at risk:
1) $25/5, $24/6, $24/8 and also $25/field. total wager $98.00 every roll.
2) Even though it's exciting to collect money from every roll, you still need to win profit to make up for the $98.00 in wagers.
3) Beware of those PSO (Point, 7-Out)shooters (There are at least 4:14 that will PSO per round) that is $98x4/loss = $392 per table round.
Craps Iron Cross Don't Pass Game
4) There is 2:14 shooters will roll 2 and 12 to give you 'Double the bubble' wins resulting in profit.5) The remaining 8:14 will randomly roll 5's, 6's & 8's followed by 7 giving you close to 50/50 chance to win/lose your wager.
I tried a strategy back in the day betting $10/5, $12/6, $12/8 and $5/Field.
strategy was to press each place bet 1 unit after a win and parley the $5 Field for 5 wins in a row. (Pays $160.00) or in your case ($800 betting $25/Field)
(The reason I chose 5 wins in a row on the field was because that's the average win on a field bet even though I've seen the field numbers come in at most 12 times in a row)
Problem is it catches up to you before the weekend is over you are chasing your losses even without the parley and pressing.
I personally do not recommend the 'Iron Cross' to anyone, well maybe my worst enemy.
8 more years till retirement.
imaterpsfan
Great information from everyone and I really appreciate it. Part of your response CG is why I posed this question. In this scenario, my DP bet before CO is double what my place/field bets would be. After the point is established, I back up with odds and move with my IC bets. If the shooter PSO's then I lose the $98, but win the DP/Odds. The point determines my odds and payouts, but it's more than the $98. I agree that the IC by itself is not a good way to play, but it was something I noted over multiple simulators and thought I'd reach out to get thoughts
From watching this strategy play out on the simulators I get killed on 7/11 CO's and Point/Point rolls and works best with a shooter who goes on an extended roll
Typically, I follow what SodaWater suggested, stick to the PL/DP with odds and enjoy the night. Occasionally I'll lay/place, but that just depends how I'm playing.
From watching this strategy play out on the simulators I get killed on 7/11 CO's and Point/Point rolls and works best with a shooter who goes on an extended roll
Typically, I follow what SodaWater suggested, stick to the PL/DP with odds and enjoy the night. Occasionally I'll lay/place, but that just depends how I'm playing.
FleaStiff
If you are so hedged that you will not lose much, then surely you can not make all that much at all.
Make your decision... accept the consequences. Don't hedge.
Make your decision... accept the consequences. Don't hedge.
mustangsally
I can't believe I've stumbled upon such a great and informative site.
Utilizing multiple simulators this strategy has been successful to varying degrees, but the simulators are not live action and don't factor in the skill (or lack thereof) of a real shooter.
Welcome!Utilizing multiple simulators this strategy has been successful to varying degrees, but the simulators are not live action and don't factor in the skill (or lack thereof) of a real shooter.
sounds like lots of action on every roll!
hard to place a $ amount on the value of such fun!
Quote: imaterpsfan
Are there simulation calculators out there that can be run to determine house advantage of this over the long run. I know the house advantage of DP with odds is .273% (MGM Grand) and IC alone is about 3%, but haven't been able to find the house advantage of this combination of long term.
Thanks,
Jim
yes. try WinCrapsThanks,
Jim
I get just under 1% HE for 3X Field pay
here is 1 million dice rolls
it shows the expected HE to be 1.44% with 2x Field pays
HE is per bets resolved and not per roll
you can also change the dice probability distribution and the on-axis percentages for your (others) current DI abilities too.
I be in Las Vegas over the March 23rd week
Please leave some money for me to win.
Nice first post Sugar,
Sugar
Sally